The future of fortune(6)

[Benno Rice]

Hello, all!

With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a discussion about fortune(6).

fortune now defaults to using a fortune file that no longer exists:

$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.

fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from the still existing freebsd-tips:

$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
-- Dru <***@istar.ca>

fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.

I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we should take:

1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.

2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

Personally I lean towards the first option.

Thanks,
Benno.

[Warner Losh]

Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then
/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the
default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.

(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo
"please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner

[Joshua Armstrong]

I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.

(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner
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To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-***@freebsd.org"

[Joshua Armstrong]

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.
#!/bin/sh
to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"
I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.
Warner

I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

Sorry for top-posting before. I had no idea that MS Outlook was so terrible. :(

-Joshua

[Steve Kargl]

Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).

There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.

What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?

Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.

Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.

This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.

[Benno Rice]

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).

There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.

You’re correct in that my intent was to avoid pointless discussion. We’ve got bigger and more fun things to work on than coming up with an editorial policy as to what is or isn’t appropriate in the fortune datfiles.

Post by Steve Kargl
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility either.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.

What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?

Nice try. The freebsd-tips collection has some useful stuff which is why I put forward the idea of keeping it. Comments like this are exactly why I got rid of everything else.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.

Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Be my guest.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.

Oh please. If you want the datfiles they’re there in history. If you want to be the one distributing them, go ahead. I’m fairly sure that the availability of quotes regarding, or by, Hitler or anyone else has been diminished by a rounding error or less by us no longer distributing the datfiles. FreeBSD is an operating system, not an encyclopedia.

Post by Steve Kargl
This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.

Think of me whatever you want, I’m not fussed. I’m asking with 100% honest intentions what the community wants to do with this tool. If the consensus is for retaining fortune for use with the freebsd-tips datfile then I’m absolutely cool with that.

I made a unilateral decision to remove a potential source of pointless distraction. I could’ve unilaterally removed fortune entirely at that point but I didn’t as the freebsd-tips aspect appears to have actual utility and is something we can easily manage. The other files weren’t. If they’re important to you, please feel free to check out either r325781 (if you want the files) or r325095 (if you want the files with the Hitler quotes) and maintain them yourself.

Cheers,
Benno.

[Peter Wemm]

Post by Benno Rice

wrote:>
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial
responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking
responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility
either.

If I add up the person-hours expended on fortune related drama over the 22
years I've been involved in the project then I quickly come to the conclusion
that it should go. For as long as I can remember, it has been *the* drama
lightning rod for the project.

With regret, I'm in the 'move to ports' camp on this. The whole thing,
including tips.

However, I'd be in favor of something like having freebsd-tips be offered as a
default post-install package in the installer.

[Johannes Lundberg]

Post by Peter Wemm
However, I'd be in favor of something like having freebsd-tips be offered as a
default post-install package in the installer.

I agree with this for freebsd-tips. It should be easier to install
than installing a port and manually add entry to shell config files.

Post by Peter Wemm
--
UTF-8: for when a ' or ... just won\342\200\231t do\342\200\246

[Cy Schubert]

I'm in favour of removing fortune entirely and replacing it with a shell script. IIRC there's at least one port that uses fortune. Making whatever currently remains of fortune a new port to address any resulting fallout and POLA from its removal from base.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.

Cy Schubert
<***@cschubert.com> or <***@freebsd.org>

---

-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Armstrong
Sent: 22/11/2017 08:51
To: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: The future of fortune(6)

I also think the tips on login are helpful. I would be in favor of making freebsd-tips the default cookie file (with the possibility of supplying other files as well) and removing the offensive option.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:36 AM
To: Benno Rice
Cc: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in /usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/
local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips /usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ;
then /usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi $ fortune freebsd-tips If you
need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.

(3) Do #1 except replace fortune with a single line shell script:

#!/bin/sh

to not break everybody's login scripts. Possibly with an optional echo "please remove fortune from .profile/.cshrc"

I personally lean towards #2 though. I think the freebsd-tips are useful.

Warner
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[Eugene Grosbein]

Post by Benno Rice
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.

Please leave fortune(6) alone and stop ruining useful enviforment removing
utilities being here long time for no reason.

You forgot that fortune(6) is not limited to files installed with base system
but is very useful with custom local set of fortunes, too.
And leave strfile(8) etc. intact for the same reason, please.

Eugene Grosbein

[Johannes Jost Meixner]

With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a

discussion about fortune(6).

Maybe this is a good moment to realize the change was contentious,
should have been discussed before, and must be reverted.

-xmj

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Johannes Jost Meixner <

Post by Benno Rice

Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a

discussion about fortune(6).
Maybe this is a good moment to realize the change was contentious,
should have been discussed before, and must be reverted.

Honestly, what's the alternative? We curate the F out of this file and have
people dog our every decision because it doesn't fit with the Republican,
Democratic, Green, Liberal, Conservative, Torre, Whig, Socialist,
Communist, Yankee, Confederate, Know Nothings, Bull Moose Party, Blues,
Reds, Pinks, Kill All The Humans, Walrus Supremacists, Bongo the Pet Seal
Horn Blowers or the actually evil Nazi[*] viewpoint? No, we can't be
unbiased because there's something in there to offend just about everybody.
Even the actual Nazi stuff people are whining about, and that's about as
clear cut an example of evil as exists in our times. If we can't agree on
even that, there's no hope for the rest. Do we want to spend project time
on curating an impossible tangle that our current dysfunctional political
climate (at least in my country) has become? Or do we want to spend time
upping our game on EFI, fixing VM issues, making the installer better, etc,
etc, etc. We're a technical project, primarily, not one that has a
political agenda.

Warner

[*] Don't like my viewpoint? I've proven my point. Not all these view
points are actually real.

[A. Wilcox]

Post by Warner Losh
We're a technical project, primarily, not one that has a
political agenda.

perhaps that is why so many people are confused by its removal.

If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a port
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.

Oh well, political correctness already took three other projects to
rubbish. It was only a matter of time before it came for FreeBSD too.
Especially since this removal was done under the cover of darkness, with
no community involvement.

You can't have it both ways. Either FreeBSD is apolitical, and
therefore does not *have* a view on the quotes included in the datfiles,
and therefore does not care that they stay; or FreeBSD is now political,
and taking a side that the quotes included are offensive.

And just so we're clear: I say this as a non-binary person who is an
LGBT rights and environmental activist. The whole point of fortune is
to be offensively funny. Take a joke. Or don't, and move it to a port.

But get all the way out of my inbox with the white knighting, please.

--arw

[Warner Losh]

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by Warner Losh
We're a technical project, primarily, not one that has a
political agenda.

perhaps that is why so many people are confused by its removal

There's no confusion: The file expresses many political views and doesn't
express other views. Curating that mess is impossible. The only way to say
we don't care is to kick it to the curb.

If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a port

Post by A. Wilcox
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.

No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

Post by A. Wilcox
Oh well, political correctness already took three other projects to
rubbish.

And there we have it. No further logical discussion is possible. Invoking
both a logical fallacy and a straw man attack based on it. Twisting "no
view at all on this stuff" into political correctness simply doesn't follow
unless you view your world through some twisted political lense. Thank you
for proving my point that trying to rationally discuss this matter is quite
simply impossible.

Warner

[A. Wilcox]

Post by A. Wilcox
If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a port
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.
No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

And *since* you have decided that "having a port" implies endorsement of
a project, before I archive this thread, here are a few more ports that
you should probably poke portmaster about:

# Mention of BDSM (BSDM?) and "sexy" outfits
devel/py-leather

# Depicts realistic situations involving stealing property
games/narcissu2

# More potentially offensive phrases
games/sex

# Useless anyway if fortune(1) is removed
misc/fortune-*

# FreeBSD is endorsing one religion over the other
misc/bibletime
misc/brs
misc/sword

# The INSULTS configuration option
security/sudo

# Supporting a murderer
sysutils/progsreiserfs

[Warner Losh]

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by A. Wilcox
If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a

port

Post by A. Wilcox
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.
No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

And *since* you have decided that "having a port" implies endorsement of
a project, before I archive this thread, here are a few more ports that

We've removed ports before because we don't believe they reflect well on
the project. However, the examples you cite are lame. None of them that I
could tell rise to the same level as what we're talking about. In no case,
except maybe the fortune ones, does the project curate a number of
disparate views that omits other views. Resorting to this extreme level of
"what about"ism isn't helpful in having a rational discussion.

Warner

[Hans Petter Selasky]

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by A. Wilcox
If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a port
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.
No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

And *since* you have decided that "having a port" implies endorsement of
a project, before I archive this thread, here are a few more ports that

Hi,

The FreeBSD project already changed its logo to be more friendly and I
think it is sad when people misunderstand the FreeBSD's Beastie trying
to attribute myself as a FreeBSD developer certain attributes.

Humor and irony is individual like Warner pointed out and some people
will never understand it and take it literally instead.

By deleting the non-FreeBSD fortunes are we certain we solve a problem
and don't simply move it somewhere else?

About offensive port names, how about "/usr/ports/print/removethedots" :-)

--HPS

[Thomas Sparrevohn]

Personally I be sad to see it go...fortune has been around for a very long time and reminds me of more innocent days where a bit of fun was a given part of the game - I remember porting it to Minix once and I struggle to see what harm it can do - but then again I am an old git

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Hans Petter Selasky
Sent: 22 November 2017 22:32
To: A. Wilcox <***@Wilcox-Tech.com>; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by A. Wilcox
If there is no political agenda, then moving the entire thing to a port
would have been the right thing to do – including the datfiles.
No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

And *since* you have decided that "having a port" implies endorsement
of a project, before I archive this thread, here are a few more ports

Hi,

The FreeBSD project already changed its logo to be more friendly and I think it is sad when people misunderstand the FreeBSD's Beastie trying to attribute myself as a FreeBSD developer certain attributes.

Humor and irony is individual like Warner pointed out and some people will never understand it and take it literally instead.

By deleting the non-FreeBSD fortunes are we certain we solve a problem and don't simply move it somewhere else?

About offensive port names, how about "/usr/ports/print/removethedots" :-)

--HPS
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[Simon J. Gerraty]

Post by Warner Losh
No. That would also give the project's endorsement to it. Gone is 'no
opinion at all' we have.

Clearly there is an opinion being expressed; namely that way too many
people in the world today, spend way too much time and effort getting
way too upset about anything and everything.

There is not a topic that you can discuss today that will not offend
*someone*.

Free speech is on it's way to becomming a myth, thanks to "social media".

This thread is just another example.

Personally I've enjoyed fortune over the last 30 years or so,
but I'm not easily offended, it's demise is a symptom of a great evil.

[Adrian Chadd]

[snip]

I'm confused by this. It's 2017. It's not required for building. It's
not required for startup. It's not required for logging. It's not
required for literally anything except a dumpster fire.

Please just move it into ports. I accept that people feel this is some
symptom of political correctness, but honestly - to me it's a symptom
of us growing the fuck up.

(Note - I was 16 when I started trying to use FreeBSD in 1996, so I
literally have grown up with this.)

We have a thousand other things to do. Please do push some other
agendas. This is honestly a brain waster.





-adrian

[Mark Linimon]

but honestly - to me it's a symptom of us growing the fuck up.

This.

So much this.

Ten thousand times this.

mcl

[Alfred Perlstein]

Post by Mark Linimon

but honestly - to me it's a symptom of us growing the fuck up.

This.
So much this.
Ten thousand times this.

Be careful throwing the last of your childhood toys, one day you will
want to give a child a gift and have nothing to give them.

-Alfred

[Johannes Jost Meixner]

Post by Warner Losh
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Johannes Jost Meixner

With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a

discussion about fortune(6).
Maybe this is a good moment to realize the change was contentious,
should have been discussed before, and must be reverted.
Honestly, what's the alternative? We curate the F out of this file and
have people dog our every decision because it doesn't fit with the
Republican, Democratic, Green, Liberal, Conservative, Torre, Whig,
Socialist, Communist, Yankee, Confederate, Know Nothings, Bull Moose
Party, Blues, Reds, Pinks, Kill All The Humans, Walrus Supremacists,
Bongo the Pet Seal Horn Blowers or the actually evil Nazi[*] viewpoint?
No, we can't be unbiased because there's something in there to offend
just about everybody. Even the actual Nazi stuff people are whining
about, and that's about as clear cut an example of evil as exists in our
times. If we can't agree on even that, there's no hope for the rest.

People will dogpile every discussion regardless, it's a people thing. If
you give people the means to state their opinion they will, invariably,
do that. The interesting part here is whether you do it beforehand - and
go with the consensus (or, at least, majority vote) or do what may seem
like arbitrary, unilateral actions.

If we can't agree on having a discussion about which action to take
first, then there's no hope for the rest.

Post by Warner Losh
Do > we want to spend project time on curating an impossible tangle

that our

Post by Warner Losh
current dysfunctional political climate (at least in my country) has
become?

Time has shown that we do that regardless of intentions. One thing I'm
wondering is if - in an international project - humor has become such a
touchy subject, especially in the wider Anglosphere, that it's best not
to try?

Post by Warner Losh
Or do we want to spend time upping our game on EFI, fixing VM
issues, making the installer better, etc, etc, etc. We're a technical
project, primarily, not one that has a political agenda.

I completely agree. Still, some things should to be discussed publicly
(and this may be a better form than on 4chan+slashdot).

[Mark Linimon]

Blue.

mcl

[Jim Thompson]

Yes, but… which blue?

Post by Joshua Armstrong
Blue.
mcl
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Marcelo Araujo]

Post by Jim Thompson
Yes, but… which blue?

Post by Joshua Armstrong
Blue.

+1 for Yellow!

Everyday FreeBSD and its community manages to go to a new level. Impressive!

Anyway, Yellow is the true color.

Post by Jim Thompson

Post by Joshua Armstrong
mcl
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

freebsd.org"
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Devin Teske]

--
Devin

Post by Marcelo Araujo

Post by Jim Thompson
Yes, but… which blue?

Blue.

+1 for Yellow!
Everyday FreeBSD and its community manages to go to a new level. Impressive!
Anyway, Yellow is the true color.

Interior decorators will quickly tell you that yellow makes people nervous. Yellow is certainly not the color :)

[Marcelo Araujo]

Post by Marcelo Araujo
--
Devin

Post by Marcelo Araujo

Post by Jim Thompson
Yes, but… which blue?

Blue.

+1 for Yellow!
Everyday FreeBSD and its community manages to go to a new level.

Impressive!

Post by Marcelo Araujo
Anyway, Yellow is the true color.

Interior decorators will quickly tell you that yellow makes people
nervous. Yellow is certainly not the color :)

Ouch, you are definitely right, +1 for blue. :)

[Chris H]

Post by Benno Rice
Hello, all!
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to have a
discussion about fortune(6).
$ fortune
No fortunes found in
/usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries from the
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune
freebsd-tips
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then
/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we should
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the
default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make
freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.
Personally I lean towards the first option.

HooWee! Here we go again... :)
IMHO There is no reason to have removed the original fortune(6).
Yes. There *were* some (potentially) offensive fortunes. *But* you had
to make a conscious decision to 1) turn that option on. 2) accepting the
knowledge that they *may* be offensive.
Why was there *ever* an issue?!
I pick up a hammer, and place my hand on the kitchen counter. I then raise
the hammer. Taking careful aim, to ensure that when I bring the hammer down
swiftly. It will strike my hand. I've done so *knowing* the outcome.
See any similarities?
If it's to (hopefully) return, and given the proposed option(s).
I'd like to suggest that fortune be re-instated, using FreeBSD tips as the
default. *But* with the option to re-instate the "traditional/classic" fortune(s).
Doesn't that make for a win-win situation? :)

Thanks for listening. :)

--Chris

Post by Benno Rice
Thanks,
Benno.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Chris H]

Post by Benno Rice

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
With the removal of the fortune datfiles I think it’s time to
have a discussion about fortune(6).

There should have been a discussion before the removal, but
your method prevented an inevitable bikeshed.

You’re correct in that my intent was to avoid pointless discussion. We’ve
got bigger and more fun things to work on than coming up with an editorial
policy as to what is or isn’t appropriate in the fortune datfiles.

Post by Steve Kargl
When functionality is removed from src, a port is usually created.
The datfiles should be available from ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Feel free to create it. If someone else wants to take editorial
responsibility for those files I’m all for it. FreeBSD should not be taking
responsibility for them and I don’t wish to take that responsibility
either.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune
No fortunes found in

/usr/share/games/fortune:/usr/local/share/games/fortune.

Post by Benno Rice
fortune is still used in the default .login/.profile to show entries
$ grep fortune /usr/share/skel/*
/usr/share/skel/dot.login:if ( -x /usr/bin/fortune ) /usr/bin/fortune

freebsd-tips

Post by Benno Rice
/usr/share/skel/dot.profile:if [ -x /usr/bin/fortune ] ; then

/usr/bin/fortune freebsd-tips ; fi

Post by Benno Rice
$ fortune freebsd-tips
If you need a reminder to leave your terminal, type "leave +hhmm" where
"hhmm" represents in how many hours and minutes you need to leave.
fortune also still has flags for showing offensive entries and the like.

What is offensive to one person may not offend another person. What
if someone objects to quotes by Dru (sorry Dru looks like you got
picked at random above). The above looks like an attack on people
with memory loss issues (age discrimination?). Will you remove Dru's
quotes?

Nice try. The freebsd-tips collection has some useful stuff which is why I
put forward the idea of keeping it. Comments like this are exactly why I got
rid of everything else.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
I would like people’s opinion on which of the following two paths we
1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from
the default .login/.profile files.

Create ports/games/bsd-fortune.

Be my guest.

Post by Steve Kargl

Post by Benno Rice
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and
make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as
/usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

3) Restore the datfiles. Add a WITHOUT_FORTUNE knob and set it
as the default. This allows an individual to tailor her system
to meet her needs without having others force a politically
correct revisionist history on them.

Oh please. If you want the datfiles they’re there in history. If you want
to be the one distributing them, go ahead. I’m fairly sure that the
availability of quotes regarding, or by, Hitler or anyone else has been
diminished by a rounding error or less by us no longer distributing the
datfiles. FreeBSD is an operating system, not an encyclopedia.

Post by Steve Kargl
This will be my one and only post in this bikeshed. Given the
sudden removal of the datfiles without discussion. This appears
to be a perfunctory discussion prior to you pursuing your own
choice.

Think of me whatever you want, I’m not fussed. I’m asking with 100%
honest intentions what the community wants to do with this tool. If the
consensus is for retaining fortune for use with the freebsd-tips datfile then
I’m absolutely cool with that.
I made a unilateral decision to remove a potential source of pointless
distraction. I could’ve unilaterally removed fortune entirely at that point
but I didn’t as the freebsd-tips aspect appears to have actual utility and
is something we can easily manage. The other files weren’t.

If this is about removing things from FreeBSD that don't offer/provide "utility".
Than you *should* have removed /usr/games entirely. Let's *actually* be
"completely honest" about all this.

I think I'm done here. Sorry. :(

Post by Benno Rice
If they’re
important to you, please feel free to check out either r325781 (if you want
the files) or r325095 (if you want the files with the Hitler quotes) and
maintain them yourself.
Cheers,
Benno.

--Chris

[Jan Knepper]

Post by Chris H
If this is about removing things from FreeBSD that don't offer/provide "utility".
Than you *should* have removed /usr/games entirely. Let's *actually* be
"completely honest" about all this.
I think I'm done here. Sorry. :(

Having used, hosted, patched FreeBSD for ~25 years, I personally like
'fortune', or something alike with 'hits' about the system, shell,
etc... However, I doubt there is a 'system requirement' to have it as
part of base.
I have *never* used 'games', ever that I recall... :-)

I am personally less (really not) concerned about 'offensive' entries.
People throughout history have said and written things that will offend
someone somewhere. In the USA I would think this effectively falls under
the First Amendment. We can say what we want, when we want, as long as
we understand that we are (still!) *responsible* for what we say. As
long as such potential entries are properly accredited to the origin,
even if the entry is potentially offensive we could learn something from
it. (IMHO it is not wrong or bad to be reminded of evil done in history).

Just my 2 cents. Not an invite to discussion...

Jan

[Julian H. Stacey]

fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

Cheers,
Julian

[Adrian Chadd]

hi,

Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.

As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.



-adrian

Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[A. Wilcox]

Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

This, so much this. Why is it so controversial to put the thing in a
package? Why do people want so badly to just remove it? Why wasn't it
discussed about putting it in a package?

It seems like if, instead of *deleting* things, they were just moved to
packages, probably nobody would have complained. Or at least, it would
have been fewer people (I wouldn't have), and the complaints would have
been lighter ("you could have told me" vs "how dare you").

Live and learn. And please, package it. ALL of it.

--arw

[Diane Bruce]

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

This, so much this. Why is it so controversial to put the thing in a
package? Why do people want so badly to just remove it? Why wasn't it
discussed about putting it in a package?

Let's bring back badblocks too while we are at it.

Post by A. Wilcox
It seems like if, instead of *deleting* things, they were just moved to
packages, probably nobody would have complained. Or at least, it would
have been fewer people (I wouldn't have), and the complaints would have
been lighter ("you could have told me" vs "how dare you").
Live and learn. And please, package it. ALL of it.

Yes. Please.

Post by A. Wilcox
--arw
--
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python)
https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/

Diane Bruce

[Cy Schubert]

Yes, the BSD manuals. I should check my 4.4BSD vol 6 when I get home tonight.

I recall playing the pre-BSD adventur game on the IBM mainframe (IIRC MVT, prior to MVS). adventur was written in Fortran at the time. The BSD version was in C.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
This old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
<***@cschubert.com> or <***@freebsd.org>

---

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian H. Stacey
Sent: 24/11/2017 08:48
To: freebsd-***@freebsd.org; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6)

fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

Cheers,
Julian

[Rodney W. Grimes]

Post by Diane Bruce

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

This, so much this. Why is it so controversial to put the thing in a
package? Why do people want so badly to just remove it? Why wasn't it
discussed about putting it in a package?

Let's bring back badblocks too while we are at it.

Its badsect(8) and it has valid uses, even today. You can get ufs/ffs
drives that develope a bad block, you can fix the immediate issue with
badsect and a fsck, you loose a file.

I have a 500G drive that has a spot that gets an error, smart flags
it as a pending relocation sector, when I back up and wipe the drive
to clear the pending hoping it well relocate it the drive decides hey,
I wrote and now read back that data so it is not bad, so puts it back
in the good sectors. Repeat a few times and you quickly learn to use
badsect t just map that sector out and let UFS never use it again.

Now I have this ufs drive... if I stick it on a 12.x current system
it is probalby not gona like my badsect(8) that I have done and I
am unclear as what may happen.

And once again no one followed commiters guide 17.4 even though I
pointed out we have a deprication procedure...

Post by Diane Bruce

Post by A. Wilcox
It seems like if, instead of *deleting* things, they were just moved to
packages, probably nobody would have complained. Or at least, it would
have been fewer people (I wouldn't have), and the complaints would have
been lighter ("you could have told me" vs "how dare you").
Live and learn. And please, package it. ALL of it.

Yes. Please.

Post by A. Wilcox
--arw
--
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python)
https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/

Diane Bruce
--
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch

[Bruce Evans]

Post by Rodney W. Grimes

Post by Diane Bruce

Post by A. Wilcox

Post by Adrian Chadd
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.

This, so much this. Why is it so controversial to put the thing in a
package? Why do people want so badly to just remove it? Why wasn't it
discussed about putting it in a package?

Let's bring back badblocks too while we are at it.

Its badsect(8) and it has valid uses, even today. You can get ufs/ffs
drives that develope a bad block, you can fix the immediate issue with
badsect and a fsck, you loose a file.

bad144(8) was removed earlier.

You can also have old media with bad blocks, and might have used bad144 or
badsect to hide them. The bad144 hiding method is fragile and no longer
works. Sectors hidden using badsect remain hidden as well as before.
They still cause long timeouts for copying the media, which is the easiest
way to preserve it all.

I don't know of any good way of preventing tree walks from accessing badsect
files. badsect files have mode 0, but this doesn't prevent root reading
them. ACLs can prevent root reading files but are not always available.
File flags could prevent root reading files, but this is not implemented.

Post by Rodney W. Grimes
I have a 500G drive that has a spot that gets an error, smart flags
it as a pending relocation sector, when I back up and wipe the drive
to clear the pending hoping it well relocate it the drive decides hey,
I wrote and now read back that data so it is not bad, so puts it back
in the good sectors. Repeat a few times and you quickly learn to use
badsect t just map that sector out and let UFS never use it again.

You can do the same manually using something like:
- write zeros to other files until the disk is full
- delete large files with bad blocks
- wite zeros to small files until the disk is full
- find the files with bad blocks in them (this is easier than using badsect,
by observing the write errors for the previous step. Other steps are also
easy, but take too long)
- move the files with bad sectors in them out of the way and chmod them to
0 and make them immutable and set other flags for them (badsect never
caught up with file flags).
badsect just allows this to be done more easily. A script doing the above
would be hard to make robust, and still take too long.

Perhaps it can also be done using fsdb. The script to do that would be
even harder to make robust. fsdb can probably do this even better by
making the directory entries or inodes for the files inaccessble (I don't
know how to do this without fsck wanting to fix it).

Post by Rodney W. Grimes
Now I have this ufs drive... if I stick it on a 12.x current system
it is probalby not gona like my badsect(8) that I have done and I
am unclear as what may happen.

No, badsect files are normal after you run fsck on them. badsect+fsck is
just a hack for getting bad sectors allocated where you want them.

Bruce

[Julian H. Stacey]

Adrian Chadd wrote:
(top posting corrected here)

Post by Adrian Chadd

Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
avoid distraction from the point:

Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.

Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.

Cheers,
Julian

[Mark Linimon]

Contentious commits forced through before discussion, should by
policy be automatically reverted, committers bit suspended

That is not FreeBSD's policy.

AFAIK that has never been FreeBSD's policy.

If it ever does become FreeBSD's policy, I will be (one of many,
I assume) out the door.

Look: AFAICT the only project that is ever going to suit you is one
you run yourself. Then you can make all the rules. There are other
BSDs that run on that model.

I remain here, despite frustrations, *because* FreeBSD doesn't run
on that model.

Does it run well? No: there are human beings involved, so QED.

But it runs better than what it would run by your demands.

tl:dr; if you want to work with people (on this project or any other),
work with them, don't attack. It's self-defeating.

mcl

[Ian Lepore]

Post by Julian H. Stacey
(top posting corrected here)

Post by Adrian Chadd

Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
Commit bits are a privilege.  Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from 
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.

I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to comment on what policy
is, but let me assure you that virtually everything you've ever said on
the subject on the freebsd mailing lists is wrong.  People reading this
thread should not make the mistake of thinking that you are associated
with the project in any way or speak authoratatively about the project
and its policies.

-- Ian

[Cy Schubert]

In message <CAJ-Vmo=puH=3+5HbKop3+WzyG35idZa-***@mail.gmail.c
om>

Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible
.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

I see no reason why fortune(6) cannot be a port. Much of /usr/games (IIRC
that's where it was) has been gutted anyway and not only that but other
more functional parts of 4.4BSD have been culled and are simply gone.

I think the way forward is:

1. Make fortune a port.

2. Whatever was in games and is in ports could be installed through a
bsd-games meta-port.

People should realize that ports are just as valid as base. Not everything
should be in base. This will become truer once base is fully distributed as
packages. A monolithic base is so 1960s. Even the IBM mainframe I worked on
in the 1970s used packages (IBM called them FMIDs). Let's get on with the
1970s and move it to ports/packages.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <***@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <***@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.

Post by Adrian Chadd

Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Mun

ich

Post by Julian H. Stacey
Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printa

ble.

Post by Julian H. Stacey
http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in

EU.

Post by Julian H. Stacey
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Mark Linimon]

Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.

A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.

mcl

[Jack L.]

Post by Cy Schubert
mail.gmail.c
om>

Post by Adrian Chadd
hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable

bible

Post by Adrian Chadd
.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

I see no reason why fortune(6) cannot be a port. Much of /usr/games (IIRC
that's where it was) has been gutted anyway and not only that but other
more functional parts of 4.4BSD have been culled and are simply gone.
1. Make fortune a port.
2. Whatever was in games and is in ports could be installed through a
bsd-games meta-port.
People should realize that ports are just as valid as base. Not everything
should be in base. This will become truer once base is fully distributed as
packages. A monolithic base is so 1960s. Even the IBM mainframe I worked on
in the 1970s used packages (IBM called them FMIDs). Let's get on with the
1970s and move it to ports/packages.
Yes! I've always been annoyed (in the past) with doing an rm -rf

/usr/games in my new server installs.

[Cy Schubert]

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.

A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.

Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.

[Cy Schubert]

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.

A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.

Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.

Apologies for the frustration. While taking breaks from putting in new
electrical in this 104 year old house, my extreme frustration at the
plumbing and joists in my way to completing what should be a simple job is
spilling over on list.

[Adrian Chadd]

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.

A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.

Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.

Apologies for the frustration. While taking breaks from putting in new
electrical in this 104 year old house, my extreme frustration at the
plumbing and joists in my way to completing what should be a simple job is
spilling over on list.

You and me both.

Mmm lead paint, asbestos and knob/tube wiring tapped infinitely...



-adrian

[Cy Schubert]

In message <CAJ-***@mail.gmail.c
om>

Post by Adrian Chadd

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Cy Schubert
1. Make fortune a port.

A port for the "classical" fortunes file has already been added.

Indeed, in bsdgames. Like really?! What's all the fuss about? Just nuke
from base then. I have half a mind to just blow it away now and be done
with all this nonsense.

Apologies for the frustration. While taking breaks from putting in new
electrical in this 104 year old house, my extreme frustration at the
plumbing and joists in my way to completing what should be a simple job is
spilling over on list.

You and me both.
Mmm lead paint, asbestos and knob/tube wiring tapped infinitely...

Yuck. That is not fun. I should stop complaining and feeling miserable. :\

[Adrian Chadd]

Post by Cy Schubert

Post by Adrian Chadd
Mmm lead paint, asbestos and knob/tube wiring tapped infinitely...

Yuck. That is not fun. I should stop complaining and feeling miserable. :\

Nah, let it out. There's so much to do.

Wait until I tell you about the carpets that had vinyl flooring
underneath with wood floors under that, with what looks like someone's
old oil fire...



-a

[Mark Linimon]

Post by Adrian Chadd
Wait until I tell you about the carpets that had vinyl flooring
underneath with wood floors under that, with what looks like someone's
old oil fire...

Wow. Not even _my_ house contains such horrors.

Mark "now I have to figure out how my new hot weater heater was badly
installed" Linimon

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi Hackers@ & Arch@
Mcl's long held animosity to me distracts. Better to consider ideas
not by author, but on merit or otherwise, & maybe improve them.

Post by Julian H. Stacey
Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.

Cheers,
Julian

[Mike Karels]

I apologize for a belated response to this thread, as well as for prolonging
it. However, I didn't want to respond until I had a chance to review the
thread and the background. Having done that, I am unhappy with how we got
to where we are, and I think discussion has not touched some important
issues.

First, for those who have not seen the original commit message in question,

Remove all fortune datfiles except freebsd-tips.
Humour is a funny thing. What is funny to one person is not funny to all
people. What is insightful to one person is similarly not universal. The
fortune datfiles have been around a long time and have undoubtedly amused
people but it's time to acknowledge their subjective, and in some cases
at least potentially offensive, nature and stop distributing them with the
imprimatur of the FreeBSD project.
If anyone wishes to distribute these via other mechanisms they are welcome to
check them out of history and do so.
MFC after: 2 days

This sounds very much like a pronouncement on behalf of the project, but as
far as I know there was no discussion at all that would make this a formal
decision. Furthermore, the change made the system internally inconsistent,
i.e. it broke things.

1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from the default .login/.profile files.
2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make freebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fortune/fortunes.

I see no reason that these should be the only two possible options. I see
at least two other reasonable options:

3) Put it back the way that it was.

4) Move the "offensive" datfiles to a port, but leave fortune and at least
freebsd-tips in the system. I note that some of the non -o limericks
are reasonably considered offensive, but I am not aware of problems in, or
complaints about, the main fortunes datfile.

There has been no valid justification, either in the original commit, the
initial email on this thread, or later in the thread, for removal. There
has been general "let's move everything to packages" sentiment. Personally,
I do not understand the goal of moving more of base (or all of it?) into
packages. One criterion mentioned was whether it was required to build
the sytem. That is a poor criterion, as embedded systems are mostly
cross-compiled, and so nothing would be in base by that criterion.
csh and vi are not required to build the system, but seem like things
that should remain in base in any case. If someone wants to explain the
motivation for moving much of the system into packages, please do so (but
in a different thread; or point me to a thread that I have missed).

fortune has been a part of BSD since long before FreeBSD. It is not a
game, and is not installed in /usr/games. It seems to me to be a part
of the BSD heritage, and removing it requires consensus rather than someone's
whim.

HooWee! Here we go again... :)

No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.

Mike

[Bill Sorenson]

Post by Mike Karels
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.
Mike

I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge -
massive difference between words people don't like and someone being
offensive.

I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler
quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I
don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people
don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a
Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or
a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this
is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any
particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really
what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips).

Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've
decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread
hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of
censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the
software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing.
Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because
it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's
feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel
stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open
society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print
detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal.

I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

-Bill S.

[Julian Elischer]

Post by Bill Sorenson

Post by Mike Karels
No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor
complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out.
After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account,
and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed.
Mike

I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge -
massive difference between words people don't like and someone being
offensive.
I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler
quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I
don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people
don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a
Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or
a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this
is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any
particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really
what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips).
Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've
decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread
hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of
censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the
software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing.
Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because
it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's
feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel
stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open
society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print
detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal.

The fact that something was said by Adolf Hitler doesn't make it
automatically unsuitable for the fortune files.
I'd say that if you think it does, that gives a lot more new
information about you than it does about Adolf Hitler, who we already
know about.
Most of the deleted quotes (to do with Women) are so offensive by
modern standards that I view them as almost satirical, and somewhat
educational.
One or two of them are positively scary in how well they fit to
current politics and I view them as cautionary.. (and certainly should
have stayed).
For those who didn't read them  you can find them in the commit
history now.

The unilateral declaration to be the "arbiter of FreeBSD morals" does
grate with me more than the demise of the data files however.
It's the old "Who elected you king?" line from Monty Python.

Think of the bikesheds that Stalin avoided when he just killed all his
opponents.
I imagine that somewhere in those files was

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this
world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or
all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of
Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from
time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947"

While we are not a democracy, Our desire to remain open leads
unavoidably to some of the same messiness, and we should accept that
as the price of our freedom to feel part of the project. The claim to
avoid a bikeshed (hmm how did that play out for you?) is not an excuse
to work without consultation.

Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.
-Bill S.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Jonathan Anderson]

Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.


Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson
***@FreeBSD.org

[Mark Linimon]

if we move the datfiles (other than `freebsd-tips`) into ports

Already happened.

mcl

[Julian H. Stacey]

Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:22:50 -0700

Post by Julian H. Stacey
(top posting corrected here)

Post by Adrian Chadd

Post by Julian H. Stacey
fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index.
Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse.
BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended,
pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion.
Then decide what what to do with fortune.

hi,
Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible.
As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into
a package seems like some low hanging fruit.
-adrian

I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to
Commit bits are a privilege.  Contentious commits forced through
before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted,
& committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with
reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for
imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion.
Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from 
discussion of desirability of a contentious commit.

I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to comment on what policy
is,

Learn to read. I wrote "Should" twice. I did not specify what policy IS.

but let me assure you

You failed to comprehend, Doubt you can assure.

that virtually everything you've ever said on
the subject on the freebsd mailing lists is wrong.

Subject ? Fortune ? Committer discipline ? Random Other ?

 People reading this
thread should not make the mistake of thinking that you are associated
with the project in any way

...................^^^^^^^^^^

Don't exagerate. I've been with FreeBSD since it existed, on lots
of FreeBSD mail lists, contributed numerous patches. I have a tree
of patches still to contribute, but this sort of noise rather discourages.

More importantly, this sort of meta noise discourages lots of others
you will never hear from, from contributing to lots of projects,
(a generic phenomena observed by many, far wider than FreeBSD).
Numerous friends dont contribute to PD src/ projects cos they know this sort
of meta noise grief they don't need.

or speak authoratatively about the project
and its policies.

I never claimed to be authoritative or hold any FreeBSD office. I
suggested there "Should" be more (professional style) responsibity.
Criticising me personaly for that just distracts attention from a
minority of the less responsible who would need to be more responsible.

Cheers,
Julian

[Dieter BSD]

So someone finds a quote of a democratically elected leader offensive.
And now some are attacking fortune with torches and pitchforks.
Let's throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Shall we throw out anything that anyone finds offensive?
I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few:

Censorship

Low quality products and services
Support for low quality products and services (inthell, microshit, ...)

Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...

Status reports that do not report progress (or lack thereof)
reducing the number of open PRs.

Replacing a working PR system with bugzilla

Dropping nuclear bombs on innocent civilians

Replacing a working package system with pile of garbage that does not work.
Naming the new pile of garbage that does not work the same as the previous
working system, which then "requires" adding another layer of crap that does
not work.

Cancer

Assuming that everyone has a reliable 24x7 ueberfast Internet connection.

Assuming that https is somehow better than http. It may add a microscopic
amount of security, but also subtracts a far larger amount. It is much
slower, and breaks many things. Often the page will not load at all.
Honoring a request for https is good, but forcing it down everyone's
throat is evil.

Mainboard designers who think that 7 expansion slots should be enough for
anyone. Many can't even count to 7.

Mainboard designers who think that RS-232 is no longer needed.

Mainboard designers who do not understand the necessity for ECC.

Closed source software, including firmware.

Building bike sheds with materials that require paint.
Proper bike sheds are built from things like stone or brick.

[Mark Linimon]

Post by Dieter BSD
Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...

Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.)

mcl

[Adam McDougall]

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Dieter BSD
Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...

Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.)
mcl

I felt compelled to say something about port maintainers not paying
attention to open bug reports but that doesn't seem to be the case for
me right now. What I did find was a few bug reports I could extract
myself from, close, or request be closed. It might be helpful to have a
yearly script notify non-freebsd parties involved in bug reports to
review their involvement and see if issues have subsided or no longer
matter. This could help reduce the total count with no substantial work
and might highlight areas that still matter.

Among those, bug reports 194935 and 219914 can be closed because they
have been fixed but I did not open them.

Thanks.

[Rodney W. Grimes]

Post by Adam McDougall

Post by Mark Linimon

Post by Dieter BSD
Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years...

Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.)
mcl

I felt compelled to say something about port maintainers not paying
attention to open bug reports but that doesn't seem to be the case for
me right now. What I did find was a few bug reports I could extract
myself from, close, or request be closed. It might be helpful to have a
yearly script notify non-freebsd parties involved in bug reports to
review their involvement and see if issues have subsided or no longer
matter. This could help reduce the total count with no substantial work
and might highlight areas that still matter.
Among those, bug reports 194935 and 219914 can be closed because they
have been fixed but I did not open them.

Another thing that has been going on is when someone "takes" a bug
by assigning it to themself is that the default is to replace the
freebsd-***@freebsd.org mailling list with that person, this makes
the montly reports sent to the mailling list that many (ok maybe
only a few) use to keep them reminded that these things DO need
to be looked at.

Some place there is a short blurb about this in some handbook
that says you should not remove this, and somehow I think it
would be in our own best interested to either modify the way
that "take owner ship" works, or the way that the bugs are
triaged onto the appropriate lists so that this does not get
removed when a commiter takes owner ship.

I have not seen any of that montly reminders in.. well months..
and though some may see that as just noise, I see those mails as
little pokes in the side reminding everyone that we got buys
and maybe we should go fix them.


Now this next statement is Blue a very nice deep Royal Blue,
sizeof(bugzilla) :== rateofchange(sourcecode). Simply stop
breaking things! Some things take months, years, even decades
before the suttle breakage is discoverd by some user. I am
not saying to stop inovation, I am saying be sure that your
actually moving the state of the art forward, and try to do
so with very well tested and complete changes.

Thank you for your time, and efforts, all those that deal with PR's!

[A. Wilcox]

Post by Rodney W. Grimes
Another thing that has been going on is when someone "takes" a bug
by assigning it to themself is that the default is to replace the
the montly reports sent to the mailling list that many (ok maybe
only a few) use to keep them reminded that these things DO need
to be looked at.

If the system auto-CC's the ML in addition to auto-assigning the ML,
then 'taking ownership' will remove the assignment but not the CC. I'm
not sure if that's how the monthly reports actually work, but if they do
count CCs, then this should be fairly easy to do.

Unfortunately it's been some time since I set up that kind of thing in
bz. I can always try and find some docs or relevant source lines if
assistance is needed.

Best,
--arw

[Chris H]

Post by Jonathan Anderson

Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.

Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated,
knowing my intervention would end it.
Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me
the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted?

If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you
believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others.
What's the point?

--Chris

Post by Jonathan Anderson
Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson

[A. Wilcox]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:50:46 -0330 "Jonathan Anderson"

Post by Jonathan Anderson

Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.

Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated,
knowing my intervention would end it.
Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me
the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted?

the "moralisation" of discussions is dehumanising, and comparing moving
bytes in a computer around with intervening in the assault of a woman is
demeaning to women *and* insulting to those of us who have been assaulted.

--arw

[Chris H]

Post by Chris H
said

Post by Jonathan Anderson

Post by Bill Sorenson
I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a
substantive improvement.

That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than
`freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we
would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything
else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement.

Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated,
knowing my intervention would end it.
Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me
the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted?

OK. This is a poor choice of examples to have used in an attempt to
make my point. I *really* should have taken more time to consider the
possibilities, *and* the *potential consequences* of that choice.
I'd like to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended
in reference to this example. :(
I'm big on freedom of speech. But, I don't tolerate "thoughtless"
speech, and nor, I think, should anyone else.

--Chris

Post by Chris H
If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you
believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others.
What's the point?
--Chris

Post by Jonathan Anderson
Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson

_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers

[Cy Schubert]

Ravi" w

So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one"

?
Yes.

Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be
satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire
to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.)

Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months.
(I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time
has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is
the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.

As gjb@ has been working toward packaged base, would it not be a good time
for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages?

Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is.

[Baptiste Daroussin]

Post by Cy Schubert

Ravi" w

So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one"

?
Yes.

Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be
satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire
to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.)

There is a knob already not to build it WITHOUT_DMAGENT

Post by Cy Schubert
Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months.
(I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time
has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is
the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.
for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages?
Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is.
--
Cheers,
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
_______________________________________________
https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch

[Mike Karels]

... A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.

Without specifying a mechanism, I agree that providing a menu would be
good. I don't think it should time out. Certain other OS installers
provide a menu of optional software to select (or not), even including
sshd. In the case I'm thinking of, there is one such menu, but it would
be nice to support menus by group, and for example, allowing at most one
selection in a category. Hopefully this would not turn into a long
series of menus, but selecting an MTA up front would be good.

Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is.

That's not quite true yet; all of base is installed, and packages take
an extra step now.

Mike

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

--------

Post by Mike Karels

... A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.

Without specifying a mechanism, I agree that providing a menu would be
good. I don't think it should time out.

The majority of installed FreeBSD systems would never see a menu
in bsdinstaller(8).

We should talk about what "make release" does, because that is the
common basis for almost all install methods of FreeBSD: bsdinstall(8),
nanobsd(8), diskless(8), jail(8) etc. etc.

Cron(8) and periodic(8) need local delivery to work, so the plain
"make release" should install dma(8) so local delivery works.

I don't care if bsdinstall(8) offers MTA configuration menus or
not, and that decision or lack thereof should not hold up replacing
sendmail(8) with dma(8).

And good riddance to sendmail(8): Life is too short for sendmail.cf

Poul-Henning

[Rodney W. Grimes]

Post by Cy Schubert

Ravi" w

So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one"

?
Yes.

Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be
satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire
to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.)
Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months.
(I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time
has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is
the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.
for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages?
Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is.

Why do we not just wait for pkg base?

These silly threads on "axe this" are just waisting time that should be
spent on getting pkg base done and then these issues become pretty much
a /dev/null.

[Baptiste Daroussin]

Post by Rodney W. Grimes

Post by Cy Schubert

Ravi" w

So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one"

?
Yes.

Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be
satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire
to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.)
Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months.
(I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time
has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is
the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the
user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period
of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and
should be a good compromise for all.
for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages?
Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is.

Why do we not just wait for pkg base?
These silly threads on "axe this" are just waisting time that should be
spent on getting pkg base done and then these issues become pretty much
a /dev/null.

First this is totally unrelated.

Second pkg base is very far from being ready, lots of work is needed to get it
ready for users, and this thread is not taking time at all from the time spent
on getting pkg base. Have you noticed the sender of this request is also one who
have spent a lot of time in packaging base?

I can tell you these issues won't become pretty much a /dev/null once packaging
base is there. In particular in the case of sendmail, it can btw actually save
time on packaging base, but that is another story...

It would be nice to not call others work silly, you are the first to ask for
people to actually follow a deprecation procedure and when they do you call it
"silly"?

Bapt

[Cy Schubert]

- aha (ISA)
- bt (ISA / PCI)

Oh no, how am I ever going to go back to the 1990s now?
Uh, wait. Actually, I hated that decade's music.

We were so young then. Cocky too.

So, forget it.
mcl
(yes, there are probably one of each in the junkbox still ...)

I have an AHA-1542 in storage.